My aesthetic was decided very early. Ownership controversy. I'm always the general on my projects. So here's my third bite at the apple. So, you know. So it really was a question of lobbying to say, "Look, I'll make this better for you over a period of years," than doing it this way. JUDITH RICHARDS: it's kind of easy to figure out. So we're changingone by one, we're changing the buildings. Well, it is, because you have the curators who are advocating for the artwork, for the artists and the collectors. I mean, I don't obsess over, you know, things that I consider decor in a way. JUDITH RICHARDS: Just to ask a couple of basic general questions. And I tried for one of them, but it wasyou know, it was because it was terribly underestimated, but of course, the marketplace knew how to make it 700 percent of its high estimate. Lotte Laserstein was a Weimar German artist, a female artistamazing artistand Agnew's had sort of rediscovered her in the 1960s and then did a show, a monographic show, in the 1980s. JUDITH RICHARDS: Are you involved in creating those settings in the booths, as you described? So, you know, I hope that's really my contribution in that context. You have to think about tastes and the moment of your taste and whether the market is esteeming that taste at a given moment. It's a big Spanish altarpiece. I think she's working throughin one of the institutions. [00:28:00]. JUDITH RICHARDS: everything that's going on. Her book is in Italian. JUDITH RICHARDS: How did that happen? And pretty much after 13, I never went back home again. JUDITH RICHARDS: So it's not secrecy. So, I was in Plovdiv and, you know, had a good time with wandering around, you know. Is your name Jim?" When you collect, does it play any role in what you're thinking about what? Yeah. During this period of time, the first decade of the century, were you coming across any preparatory drawings or other related material to these major works that you were studying and acquiring, or trying to acquire? He said, "Yes, I'm Jim." CLIFFORD SCHORER: I mean, you're notI'm not going to be able to use the museum to improve my third-rate Old Master by donating my first-rate Old Master and saying, "This comes from the same collection." CLIFFORD SCHORER: O-C-K-X, I believe. So, to me, that was, you knowthat was my day at that curator table, where I was silent the whole time, and at the end, I just sort of put the trump card down. CLIFFORD SCHORER: you know, longer term; I'm excited when an institution finds that something I provide to them fills a lacuna that they would then feelthat they would really miss if I took it away. CLIFFORD SCHORER: The audience who is evaluating, you know, the merit of a Kangxi, you knowyou know, a vase or whatever. [00:02:00]. [00:50:00]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Not long. And there are 7.9 or eight billion people now. . 
Yes. So my grandparents, whom I adoredmy grandfather and grandmotherthey lived on Long Island, CLIFFORD SCHORER: They lived on Long Island in a town called Freeport. JUDITH RICHARDS: You mean furnishings and the hotels? [00:56:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: I do like art storage and handling. You know, I'd just come over and ask them questions about art, and I'm learning more from them than they could ever learn from me, CLIFFORD SCHORER: because they're there telling me about something that they have, you know. They had wonderful people. And unfortunately, I mean. They invited my paleontological heroes, which they also did a wonderful job ofand I sat in the audience quietly, and then at the end of it, we came to an accommodation to create a permanent installation for the specimen, which is the largest specimen in the state. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, 2004 or '05, yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think they have more problems now that they have more visitors, because the doors are opening and closing more, and more people means more humidity from the people. JUDITH RICHARDS: And the insurance? You know, your real moneymakers, frankly, are selling one or two major paintings. And not being so much in business? But we have some legacy of where certain pieces went, and I was able to track some pieces down later in life. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, yeah, I think it'sI think we are scaled right now for the market we're in. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I mean, I can say more about that, but I can't say more about that for litigation purposes. JUDITH RICHARDS: You were traveling a lot in the '80s. I'm improving the collection. CLIFFORD SCHORER: and that's an area that, as I've expanded my interest in, because Agnew's has such a deep archive on that material, so, you know, one of the first big projects we did with Anthony [Crichton-Stuart] was a phenomenal Pre-Raphaelite exhibition and show, and, you know. JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I mean, I have a fewI have a print from a Bulgarian art show from 1890. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I went to TEFAF. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I know that Colnaghi has managed to navigate those waters for the last 60-odd years since the originalyou knowwell, even more than 60 for thesince the original founders were out of the picture. So I think that the understanding was there that I was going to do it, so, you know, might as well support him in that decision and then see what happens. I was in London less so. And she's likeshe justI slipped her a little money; she shifted her chair over, and I went in. That'syou know, those are all possibilities. Children Under a Palm (or sometimes Children Under a Palm Tree) is a water colour painting by Winslow Homer. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, Russian and Bulgarian. You know. Then we did the Lotte Laserstein, the Weimar German show, where we borrowed from the German state institutions for the first time ever, as I understand it, as a private gallery, borrowed from museums, Berlin specifically. So I said, "Give me a little while to think about it," and I went to walk around TEFAF. You talked about improving the collection; are you continually culling and, as you buy better examples, selling lesser examples? Their father was in the artwas sort of a discoverer. But, you know, that, to me, is all very rewarding. [Affirmative.] CLIFFORD SCHORER: Early 20th-century British and Continental. And in some cases, they still collect in those fields, or more likely, given that it's now 40 years later, many of them are either passed away or quite old now. Someone mentioned the name Mark Fisch to meJon Landau. And, you know, those are amazing moments. And they tended to be a little unstable. So there's thosethere's those kind of, you know, the grime of Naples and the horror that life must've been during the plague of 1650 creates this explosion of these gruesome paintings. Transcript is available on the Archives of American Art's website. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I was livingI was in Paris a lot. You're welcome. But it wasI've covered the allegories I'm interested in. So all of that was interesting, and there was no need there to say, Okay, you know, from the Nanking Cargo-type of plate, there are 15 different floral varieties. This isto me, this is one of the great paintings of Procaccini. But it hammered down; I lost it, you know, and thought no more of it. [Affirmative.] CLIFFORD SCHORER: Only well after that. And I had to carry the pieces. [9], At a later date, the painting was placed on the Art Loss Register, operated by a commercial company based in London which charges a fee to register stolen paintings. And the. They have, you knowone of the greatest mosaics in America is hidden behind a coat check. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think so. Is that the case? Did that kind ofdid you ever look back for your family there? World War II. It's obviously spelled in a different alphabet. I mean, it was a field where I think I probably bought 300, 350 pieces total, and over the course of probably three and a half years. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's a big change, yes. Because in those days, you had to have the paper, you know; not everybody was online. But I thinkand actually, in those days it was the museum up in Salem, which is the predecessor of thetoday's Peabody Essex, that had this kind of marine trade room with a lotwith a lot of things in it. I'd probably be better off. [00:02:03]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: The MFA. So those were always fun and, again, because a Crespi comes top of mind, there were three Crespis that came up that I was able to buy and reattribute to Crespi, and now they're accepted. And I know them, and I know the pictures, and I won't say more than that. [Laughs.]. JUDITH RICHARDS: Let's say the deluxe model. So we did something, you know, I thought rather radical, which was, you know, Anthony's idea, a very good idea, which was to showBill Viola was focused on martyrdom by the four elements, and we constructed this entire idea about martyrdom to build an exhibition around. And by 13, I thought I had no business in school, which is why that sort of very constricted environment up in New Hampshire was tough for me. It got out of hand, and I made a concerted effort to say, you know, "I have to scale this down, because if I fall down dead tomorrow, someone's going to have, you know, I would say, a William Randolph Hearst-scale cleanup to do. JUDITH RICHARDS: I imagine you wanted to preserve the goodwill of the name of Agnew's. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Or the auction houses, yeah. I spoke to the auctioneers quite a bit. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Because the collection was enormous. Yeah, not so much an engraving. Is itis thereis it an issue that you grapple with, or is there a way that you can manage, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Sure, it impacts us all, and it impacts us all in a very fundamental way. The door is closed; we buzz you in. So, I mean, I don't necessarily meet art connoisseurs. We can cover a lot of auctions in a night. I thought it really worked well. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It has a whale vertebrae, a really good example. But, and I went right toI went right to the paintings. This interview is part of the Archives of American Art Oral History Program, started in 1958 to document the history of the visual arts in the United States, primarily through interviews with artists, historians, dealers, critics and administrators. 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